Aleks: [00:00:00] What does digital pathology look across continents definitely different in Europe than in Asia.

Aleks: [00:00:00] What does digital pathology look across continents definitely different in Europe than in Asia.

Aleks: In this episode, I’m joined by Junya Fukuoka and Norman Zerbe, the president of the Asian and European Societies of Digital Pathology. And we’re gonna be exploring how different regions are approaching direct to digital imaging and pathology, frozen sections and adoption challenges from infrastructure and regulations to low resource innovation and cross continental collaboration. This is a global perspective where digital pathology is headed, and this episode is one of our special USCAP episodes that were all sponsored by Muse Microscopy.

So let’s dive into it.

Welcome digital Pathology Trailblazers.

So I have two pretty significant representatives of the digital pathology world. I have the President of the European Society of Digital Pathology and the Asian Society of Digital Pathology. I [00:01:00] have Junya Fukuoka and Norman Zerbe.

Welcome guys to the show.

Junya: Thanks.

Norman: Thanks for having us.

Aleks: So it’s gonna be a very quick special edition at USCAP. And the question for both of you is obviously you are trailblazers in digital pathology and this podcast episode is sponsored by Muse.

Aleks: I wanna, I. Get your input. Where do you see direct to digital tissue imaging in the current world of digital pathology and in the future world of digital pathology?

And I’m gonna start with you, Norman.

Norman: Yeah. Thank you. So I, I think the last three digitization is really super interesting and appealing because some of the problems that we are dealing with in digital pathology is that we are digitizing an analog process. And we might solve some of the problems when going digital.

Without using the step on the glass slide and then digitizing the glass slide. This is something interesting. I also like to see having multimodal data [00:02:00] coming into this not using like only Brightfield light, but also UV light like Muse is doing, or even other imaging technologies. So I think there’s quite, quite a chance to do that.

I still think these technologies are still in the developing phase, but the results that we are seeing so far are promising.

Aleks: What about you? What do you think Jun…

Junya: Yeah, I think, like I say, for the frozen tissues, like a frozen service, we are doing, we that can be immediately replaced by this because frozen, takes about 15 minutes, right?

With, and also a lot of data artifacts and stuff. And then afterward in the, to confirm it, you have a father defrost it. And I have many process, but with this you can skip all of this, just get images and this process as usual. Ordinarily profit broke. So that’s, and then you can confirm it.

That’s first thing. The other thing is that also have the depths to cover. That’s a very good part as well. So I think we, because yes, you have very good opportunity to replace frozen service. [00:03:00]. That’s my impression.

Aleks: So I have a follow up question because you have seen the transition and you keep seeing the transition to digital both in Europe and in Asia, and obviously there is a significant change management effort. What would be the things that you’re seeing would need to happen for this to get adopted? Both from the infrastructure perspective or like logistical perspective and like people change management perspective based on your experiences from. The other digitization efforts.

Norman: So I think one thing that I think is a key opener or is definitely required to, to get this this technology being used in a routine is that we have to make sure that the legal environments that we are working in are still possible to address, right? We have a regulation how tissue samples have to be stored, how long they have to be stored that we can do some.[00:04:00]

Some reuse after recurrence or whatsoever of the tissue. And we have to make sure that even when we are using now Glass-Free or other innovative technologies, that we always are compliant with these legal implications because otherwise it will remain only being a research a research use case.

And we can’t move towards routine. So I think that’s for now, for me, the most important aspect to make sure. And that of course also includes several others, but I think if we have solved that one. Then we have the door open to, to really bring it to routine.

Junya: Yeah. I have a little bit, different input from the Asia because, Asia is quite a special, you know how diverse we are.

I know. It’s like a huge,

Aleks: I had a guest from Japan yesterday.

Dr. Junya: Oh, is that so? Wonderful. So then that, one of the ideas that, you can prove all of those in a poor resource country because they don’t have a very good, the histology technology technique and also, and all of those, [00:05:00] the.

The processing label is not very great, right? But, the, then you can compare with zero graspy, the protocol. And it’s gonna probably, my impression is it’s gonna be probably even equal or even better than the current, the poor fixation of pro processing of tissues.

So that may really change the protocol. So if we, that happens in some of the countries, you can probably, talk to the government wherever. Like I say, China is, like I say, one of the good example. They’re doing all of those in AI in a practice skipping all of the other things because they are so poor resource places.

So I think this is one of the area that you can start, the making the, those partion study and, make this as a true practice. The products,

Aleks: This is like a totally the flip side of what you said because the realities are just so different. But it’s an interesting way of leveraging.

The [00:06:00] situation in the poor resource countries for the benefit of the countries that have more resources, but have different challenges.

Aleks: Anything else before I guys let you invite the digital pathology trailblazers to the events that you guys are preparing? Any last thoughts?

Norman: I think it it’s pretty easy and I would already like to go onto this, official invitation to get people engaged with the international societies. We are trying to combine forces on a global basis now between the US, Europe, Asia. Also the newly founded African society and something’s coming up in, in South America. Also sneak preview here. So because we think we don’t have to and don’t want to invent the wheel again and again.

But please, if you are based in Europe or are interested in what is going on in Europe, please come to Barcelona. End of June this year, it’s an amazing meeting. [00:07:00] More than 800, probably more than 900 attendees will be there. All the industry leaders are there, all the research activities are there.

There will be hundreds of abstracts being presented, so it will be one of the biggest, no, it will be the biggest European Congress under the pathology that ever happened, so all of it

Junya: So from Asia, probably not many people knows about Asia, Asia, you would be surprised. There are many superstars actually, in terms of the science and also practice.

Aleks: You are truly here.

Junya: Okay. Yeah. I have several publications also. Yeah. But anyhow, there not me, it’s like a very even higher, let’s say with nature onset. Yamas, those people are actually there. They’re invisible. Why? Because they’re coming to US, and or YOLO because there was no network, no society beforehand.

But now we have Asian society, right? So then, those superstars gathering and making networks. So you would see what is going [00:08:00] on in Asia. It’s probably quite exciting, to understand. To just, because now. The world is all connected. Like Noman said, Africa’s popping on something and Europe is doing something, the Asia.

So yeah, we are already connected, right? So yeah, enjoy those diversity.

Aleks: Fantastic.

Aleks: I love that you guys are collaborating. I love that there are even more societies for every continent. Thank you so much for your time, and I talk to you in the next episode.

Junya: Okay. Thank you. Bye bye.

Norman: Thank you. Bye bye.